Interview with Stephen Smith, President & CEO L.L.Bean

In the first episode of Coach Class I had the pleasure of speaking to Stephen Smith, President and CEO at L.L.Bean. Steve and I worked together at ASDA here in the UK, before he became CEO of the family owned outdoor clothing retailer in Maine, USA. Since then I've been lucky enough to have L.L.Bean as one of my clients.

Steve thinks about leadership as curiosity, and trying to get the best out of the people around you. He thinks about expert skills and transferable skills in people all the time. Expert skills are what you are good at e.g. you're a marketer, you're a social media expert, you're a public relations, professional. Whereas transferable skills are what makes you a great thinker, you're persuasive, you have great time management, you're charismatic.

He has three big three values that he lives by and thinks about all of the time from a leadership perspective: empathy, transparency, and integrity.

Empathy - put yourself in somebody else's shoes, understand their perspective. And that can be a person working for you, or can be an adversary or peer.

Transparency - sharing everything, talking about everything, trying to give as much context as possible.

Integrity - just always attempting to do right to do the best possible thing. 

Those three values, to Steve are the most important values. When he thinks about his own career, and he thinks about managing and leading people, he imagines assembling skills. He thinks about removing friction, trying to understand why things get done and how they get done and how these decisions impact the organisation and these individuals. 

Tune in to hear more of what Steve has to say. He is a truly remarkable leader and human being.

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Transcript

Dom Burch: 0:08

Welcome to the first episode of Coach Class with me, Dom Burch. This is the podcast where I get the chance to speak to inspirational leaders, coaches, mentors, people that I've had the pleasure of coming into contact through my career. And I'm absolutely delighted to welcome Stephen Smith, who's president and CEO, at L.L.Bean to the podcast, we had the pleasure. Well, it was my pleasure, let's find out if it was Steve's, of working together Asda for a few years. More on that in a bit. But since parting ways, he's also been a client of mine at L.L.Bean and a regular go to guide when I'm at a crossroads, or in need of some helpful guidance, or a kick up the bum. So Steve, thank you so much for joining me this week on Coach Class.

Steve: 0:52

You know, it's funny, when I think about meeting you, and the first time that we interacted and sort of how that cemented a picture for me, I really appreciate experts in their field. And I remember you were talking about and you demonstrating a deep expertise and knowledge in an area where I was unfamiliar, or I should say, I was familiar, but I didn't have a lot of experience or expertise around it. And so I think about leadership a lot as curiosity, and trying to get the best out of the people around you. And, you know, I saw expertise that I didn't, that I didn't have, and I appreciated. If I jump to a bit of the end. And we can obviously unpack this, I think about expert skills and transferable skills in people all the time. And expert skills are you know what you are good at what what are you, you know, you're a marketer, you're a social media expert, you're a public relations, professional. Transferable skills are what makes you you know, a great thinker, you're persuasive, you have great time management, you're charismatic, and you were one of those perfect examples of leading with expert skills. And then once I got to know you, I was like, actually, I don't care if the guy doesn't have expert skills in the next job. I like how he thinks, how he operates, how he holds himself how he remains curious. And I would, I would move that person into a role where they would seem unqualified, because their transferable skills are so strong, you were one of those cases.

Dom Burch: 2:20

One of the things that struck me also was that you said to me, at one point, you grow up at one point in your career and the organisation that you grow up in, when you move organisations, it's very hard then to stay connected to the people who are in the organisation who were once like you, who are doing the real work, who know what's really going on, or having the real conversations. And so you used to take time, I think, to put those firebreaks into your schedule, because like you're on the exec, you're a busy guy, you've got lots of meetings to chair and go to and but you would you would kind of clean out an area of your your schedule each week and say, This is my time to connect with people. And you would hold like listening groups and one on ones wouldn't even people just to kind of feed I guess from Tell me what's going on what's going on going on in your world? What Why is that so important to you?

Steve: 3:08

It's so true. And it is it's a phrase that I've used a long time and I and it is, you know, you only grew up in one organisation, once and and so you know, someone who's worked in a place for a long period of time, you know, you understand everything, not just the job at hand. But you know, where power resides? And, you know, who does what, and how does the decision making actually work and you know, who's doing the actual work on these particular things, when you find friction. And you know, that if you've been at a place, if I find it, it's incredibly challenging when you come into a new organisation at a very high level. And you come in, you know, I, when I was at Asda, I will never actually know what Asda, how it actually operates, how does it actually run what what is the work actually feel like for, you know, people who had their first job or they're early in their careers, and, you know, it's it goes to, it goes to curiosity, as mentioned earlier, but I really, really want to understand when I come into a new organisation, how to work it on how the work, what it feels like, and it's, it's two components in there. One, I am a builder by nature, my hobbies outside of work are, you know, building furniture and working on a vehicle and, you know, I like art and stuff. So I like to understand how something is built, how something is put together, how it's designed. So it's important to me to understand the component parts and then as I've moved up in the organisation, what's incredibly important is, you know, when you're making decisions at the top level of an organisation, you truly want to know how those decisions will feel how do they manifest themselves throughout the organisation and you want to be making changes and policy changes and you know, and changes in work that are getting the best out of the organisation that you are managing and the only way to do that is number one. To understand that organisation and how work gets done, but then also have direct contact with the people that are doing the work or that are impacted by your decisions so that they can give you great feedback to be a better leader.

Dom Burch: 5:12

And it's fair to say, you know, you're a people person, right? So you like people? And I think you know that and that's a huge quality, how do you balance that that sort of line, I guess, of being, you know, somebody's mentor, somebody's manager, you know, somebody who's in a leadership role with being in amongst the team, you know, and I remember the first time I got a proper manager role, and I wanted to be player coach, I wanted to be in the team and go out with the team and socialise with the team. But at some point, I recognised that, actually, there needed to be a line drawn between being really great work colleagues and friends, and actually being in a position of authority or trust. That's quite a tricky line for people to see sometimes. How did you go on that journey? Because I guess we all have to go through that transition at some point.

Steve: 5:58

It's such an awesome question Dom. And, and, and just, you know, for me, that it is really hard. For me personally, that is something that is really, really hard. I like to be liked. And so you know, as a, you know, I'm a I am a people person, and I do believe in, you know, I believe that everybody, anybody can do anything with the right coaching with the right mentorship and all. And that's not actually true. And so I get disappointed when people can't, but it's, you know, the people connection is so incredibly important to me, and I've had to, I've actually had to just create a little manufactured switch in my brain that tells me, you shouldn't be there, you probably shouldn't do that. And that is everybody's going out for beers, great, join them for beers, it's nine o'clock, everybody's getting a little tipsy. And they're starting to tell cool stories. And it's fun. And I would love to be one of the I can I can hang with anybody and tell every, you know, inappropriate story and be and laughing. But all sudden, you have to have a little switch that says, you know, what, I actually shouldn't be here, this is there's a line that's near here, and I probably need to move away from that line, just to create that separation. So for me, it's been a little bit of a, you know, a manufactured switch, to make sure that I've, I don't cross that cross that line. And then you do have to, you know, especially as you go up in an organisation, like you have to realise there's a moment in your own organisational growth, if you just take like, from a specialist, to a manager, to a senior manager, to a director to a VP or officer or to achieve to a CEO on that linear progression. there's a there's a, there's another progression occurring, which is you're going from 100% responsible in your function to at the very top of that 100% accountable to the corporation. And if I take myself, it's sort of you know, as a marketer, my marketing team, it was all marketing and the job or task at hand, then it was managing my marketing team, then when I became an officer was, while I'm part of the corporation, by the time you become a chief or the CEO, your loyalty actually is more to the corporation than it is to the function that you are leading. And then that means that you need to develop that objectivity. That is, you always need to be focused on doing the right thing for the organisation first, and that's a hard maturing to come to grips with. But it does mean there are times when you have to move or replace or fire, you know, somebody who you might like personally, but they're not performing well. And it's not in the best interest of the organisation.

Dom Burch: 8:33

I just want to pick up on that anybody can do anything, because I think one of the things that struck me, so you had to go through quite a tough challenge as there were every few years, you know, of certain people, not certain number of people have to leave the organisation and being in charge of a function. You know, that's your role, isn't it to exit some people. And I remember the day clearly, because, as part of that, reorg, I was given a role that honestly, I remember seeing a bit of paper and thinking, I don't really understand the words on the piece of paper, let alone the job. How am I going to do that, and it just followed, funnily enough, you know, an appraisal about six weeks earlier, where it was celebrated, my diversity of thinking was how it was badged, but basically celebrated. I was the least commercial person and the whole of as as marketing function. And I was quietly proud of that fact. And then I was put in charge of the only part of marketing that required it to make a load of money, like 40 million pounds a year turnover, or whatever it was. Anyway, I remember, I remember coming up to the end of that day, and it had been a really tough day. And I could tell it's been a tough day, but I asked for some time with you. And it was a couple of things that stood out one you gave me that time. And I'd recently read 'How to win friends and influence people', so I was self aware enough to start the conversation by asking how are you? Not? How am I How are you? And it had been a tough day really, really tough day and you told me how tough it had been. I then did the next best thing I could think of which was to thank you for giving me this job because clearly there was another envelope which says See you later and there was one that says here's a job you don't understand the name of but I remember being really anxious and You said these words to me. And I don't know if you remember, but you said these words to me. And it was what I needed to hear. You said, Dom, if this isn't the job for you come back and see me in six weeks time, raise your hand, and I will find you something else to do. And it is what I needed to hear to give me the confidence to try something out of my comfort zone, which you could see I was capable of doing. But my self limiting Dom was thinking, I can't do that job. I don't know how to do that job. It was really, really powerful, is that the kind of have you had that done to you? Is that why you're able to do that for other people have people showing you faith in the past have given you that ability to try things you never thought you could do?

Steve: 10:40

Yes. And I have had the blessing of having a number of absolutely fantastic bosses, I've had some bad bosses, and I've learned a lot from them as well. But I've had some fantastic bosses who have taken bets on me, and it goes back to something earlier was, you know, I love how you think I love how you carry yourself, I love your curiosity. And I am confident that you can do this job. And I've had that, you know, I think about some of my middle advanced career promotions, you know, out of marketing into merchandising, which I had never done before, you know, going from working in English language to work in the French language, like, there are things where the person knew that I had the skills to be successful in the role. And there's a really interesting equation there, which is if you have to have a strong trusting relationship with your boss, or with the hiring manager, but so many times, if the responsibility is actually on the hiring manager on the boss. I put you into that role Dom, because I believed that you would be successful in that role, I needed that role to be successful, I had to put somebody in there who is going to do a good job to your point, it was 40. And I think it was actually 60 million pounds of profit that that they that generated. And so you may have your self-doubts. But the pressure is on the hiring manager that if I believe you to do the job, I need to, I need to share and show that I believe in you, you know, and so many times those things are in conflict, you may not believe that you're qualified for but if the person who's hiring you, they have a broader picture, they have a bigger picture of what's needed, and they can see those things in you that will make you successful in that role. And the key is to is to nurture, nurture those strengths, you know, and there is a whole development adage around, you know, you focus on the weaknesses, you do focus on the strengths, then I think you move people into expansive roles, really based on their strengths. And then you allow those, you know, whatever those weaknesses or deficiencies to either be made up by other people or to develop over time.

Dom Burch: 12:47

I love that concept of taking a bet on somebody and actually paying something forward. And I know it's an often use phrase, but so I watched again, the the speech that you gave, well, three years ago, I guess two and a half years ago to college graduates at your old college Dickinson, and you talked about the backpack that you carry the figurative backpack that you've carried since you were 25. And the things that you take in and, and the things that you occasionally you'll look and you'll take things out and put other things in, you know, that sense of, of giving back of paying forward of inspiring people. I mean, one I love doing that myself, because it gives me a sense of fulfilment and well being. What is it that you love about, you know, being able to inspire other people?

Steve: 13:30

I mean, really simply, I love people achieving or surpassing their potential and, you know, potential is there's a self potential, what do you think you can do, and there's a potential of what people think you can do. And I think, you know, as a leader, you know, as you develop and mature, as a leader, you're trying to identify people's potential, make them, you know, help them believe in themselves. And then when you get to watch that happen, I find that hugely rewarding. I really have always thought about my life and my career. And it goes to the backpack analogy as I am assembling and amassing skills. And I've always been thinking about skill building and adding experiences to the backpack. And the journey itself is fun and interesting, and is kind of the goal for me. Whereas I'm not focused on the destination, the destination is sort of unfolds or appears out in front of me. As long as I'm focused on assembling and amassing skills, I know I'm improving, and I know good things will happen. And I think about that same thing for people who work for me, on what skills can I put, you know, projects, different leadership moments in front of them, so that they too, are amassing skills and experiences and becoming, you know, more well rounded people and leaders and experts in their fields. That's sort of how I think about my career. And so I think about managing people,

Dom Burch: 14:53

What's the best piece of advice, perhaps that you recall that you were given? That just, you know you carry with you each day. Because we all have those moments don't we?Of self doubt or stress, and particularly in the middle of a pandemic, and all those things. What's the thing that you you recall and think, you know what, that is a guiding principle. That's one of the values that I live by.

Steve: 15:13

My big three values that I think about all the time from leadership perspective, are empathy, transparency, and integrity. And those those three words sort of aligned with the philosophy I just shared with you, if you know, empathy, put yourself in somebody else's shoes, understand their perspective. And that can be you know, person working for you, or can be an adversary or peer. Transparency, you know, is sharing everything, talking about everything, trying to give as much context as possible. And then integrity is just always attempting to do right to do the best possible thing. Those values, to me are the most important values. All the things that we've talked about are all active thoughts for me, when I think about my own career, and I think about managing and leading people. You know, I think about assembling skills, I think about removing friction, I think about trying to understand why things get done and how they get done and how these decisions impact, you know, the organisation and these individuals. And to me, that's all comes out of empathy.

Dom Burch: 16:12

Fantastic. Well, Stephen Smith, President and CEO of L.L.Bean, former colleague and I like to think of as a friend over the other side of the water. Thank you so much.

Steve: 16:21

Thank you.